Charitable discussions of IP?
I refer to Jeffrey Tucker’s July 19th post, “L. Neil Smith on IP“; below are comments I made:.
.Jeffrey: I’m all for discussing this further, but with a little more charity than you offer to L. Neil Smith, who understandably “painted himself into a corner” as a result of an emotional over-reaction to insensitive and insincere actions by FreeTalkLive radio show host Ian Freeman and others of the Shire Society.
Your strawman doesn’t help; far from insisting that he owns all of his ideas, it’s clear from his references to “plagiarism” that Smith thinks he is simply protecting what he regards as his legitimate interests in a particular expression of his ideas.
I’ve expressed some of my thoughts – on property and copyright, and on community, respect and persuasion, in greater detail on Stephan’s thread:
http://blog.mises.org/13277/the-l-neil-smith-freetalklive-copyright-dispute/#comment-701808
http://blog.mises.org/13277/the-l-neil-smith-freetalklive-copyright-dispute/#comment-702789
http://blog.mises.org/13277/the-l-neil-smith-freetalklive-copyright-dispute/#comment-702742
But let me note that even while I see holes in Smith’s arguments (as well as in arguments by others), I feel that his reaction [that the Shire Society stepped on his toes] was completely understandable even if one rejects his position on IP [which, after, all is largely the conventional legal view]. What we consider to be legitimate “property” is quite malleable, differs from society to society, and is something that we defend fairly reflexively (especially when we see our own “rights” threatened, while those doing the threatening are quick with rationalizations, as Smith notes). [It’s natural that Smith, having grown up with these rules, would take umbrage when he feels the rules, his “rights” and the moral order have been breached, and at his expense; age and society have a way of making conservatives out of most of us.]
My modest suggestion is that those who wish to change how others think about IP consider more deeply how societies establish rights, and show a little more sensitivity to the sensitivities of others who have accepted conventional views of IP and have not yet reconsidered them. If one wishes to move away from statism, it hardly seems effective to so by starting off the “conversation” by first stepping on the toes of others and then thumbing one’s nose at them.
Regards,
Tom
Stephan:
Thanks for bringing this to our attention, laying it out for us and providing all the links. I’ve been listening to the radio show.
I also appreciate your effort to expose what you see as fundamental problems with statist IP and to explore a different intellectual foundation.
I have a few comments.
First, the co-host, Mark Edge, basically has it right: FreeTalkLive radio host Ian Freeman has acted like a jackass and a jerk, and appears “congenitally incapable of not being condescending”. Someone else on the show mentions Freeman’s “d*ck move”. And “crusty” L. Neil Smith clearly over-reacted as well. This is not simply a surface issue, but a deep one. What the brouhaha is about is REALLY about is about frustrated human reactions when community breaks down and leaves us with little but emotion and self-righteous posturing on “principle”.
Rather than really being about IP, the whole thing seems to me to be about Smith feeling – understandably in my view – like he was slighted, and the negative pissing contest that resulted. The eager young Shire guys got caught up in their own project, and it seemed never even to enter their minds that they should have troubled themselves to let Smith know in advance that they intended to use Smith’s work in drafting their own declaration. If that happened in a real community of people who knew each other, wouldn’t we all think that the Shire guys had ignored what seems like a natural protocol? Where is the “compassion” that some on the talk show referred to?
This discussion of human interaction and emotion is NOT a side issue — in a real stateless word, how would people deal with each other, and reach agreement on principles and how they apply in particular circumstances? Our mass society makes it easier to act more shallowly and self-interestedly, and easier to diss and mock others while finding convenient self-justifications – including statements of principle (“my work is property!” or “IP is theft!”) – for doing so. This is clearly evident in the Smith-Freeman IP dispute, but we also see it on practically every blog, including threads here. Modern technology makes it possible for us to have great conversations with interesting people all around the world, but it also makes it difficult to satisfy our need for REAL community, and makes it easy for us to act more immaturely and less responsibly.
Second, as to what IP “should” be, Stephan will not be surprised to hear that I agree with Mark Edge’s suggestion is that “property” is really no more than what a community of people AGREE is property … and it there is a very wide realm of economic interests that human societies have treated and do treat as a legitimate property interest. (A separate, but related issue, is the negative role that the state can play.) In short, a society can very well agree that a producer of intellectual work has some claims regarding control, compensation and copying, even when the work passes out of his/her hands.
I made a few comments to Stephan’s November 2009 post on “Intellectual Property and Libertarianism”, which I have gathered together here: http://mises.org/Community/blogs/tokyotom/archive/2009/12/20/what-is-quot-property-quot-a-few-weird-thoughts-on-evolution-society-quot-property-rights-quot-and-quot-intellectual-property-quot-and-the-principles-we-structure-to-justify-them.aspx
I copy them here for the interested reader two of my comments (on society, property and IP) that Stephan left unaddressed;
2.1 http://blog.mises.org/11045/intellectual-property-and-libertarianism/#comment-628161