[Preface added] IP Flamewars, Community and Principles; A few thoughts to Stephan on "The L. Neil Smith – FreeTalkLive Copyright Dispute"
Stephan/others in the LvMI/libertarian community:
I tried to post a long comment on this on July 16, but it got caught in moderation limbo (and though I’ve said a dozen Hail Marys, it’s still stuck), so allow me to note to anyone who hasn’t seen it the backup copy of the comments that I posted to my blog:
IP Flamewars, Community and Principles; A few thoughts to Stephan on “The L. Neil Smith – FreeTalkLive Copyright Dispute” ; http://mises.org/Community/blogs/tokyotom/archive/2010/07/16/ip-flamewars-community-and-principles-a-few-thoughts-to-stephan-on-quot-the-l-neil-smith-freetalklive-copyright-dispute-quot.aspx
(My purpose of a cross-link is not to capture traffic, but simply to provide access to comments that, because of too many links (I guess), I could not post here.)
The gist, which I see as semi-self-evident, is that libertarians and others who would like to build a non-statist society need to pay sincere attention not simply to “principles” but to the hard work of building the sine qua non of cooperative society: a strong sense of community.
Without real community, which entails trust, mutual respect, commitment, patience, more than a little common courtesy and, yes, shared principles and rules, we are merely bickering and self-justifying and self-aggrandizing individuals and factions – for which “principles” can simply be a line of division.
Are those here genuinely interested in a free society? If so, they should understand what they need to do to actively help and not hinder the effort.
Kind regards,
TT]
Stephan:
Thanks for bringing this to our attention, laying it out for us and providing all the links. I’ve been listening to the radio show.
I also appreciate your effort to expose what you see as fundamental problems with statist IP and to explore a different intellectual foundation.
I have a few comments.
First, the co-host, Mark Edge, basically has it right: FreeTalkLive radio host Ian Freeman has acted like a jackass and a jerk, and appears “congenitally incapable of not being condescending”. Someone else on the show mentions Freeman’s “d*ck move”. And “crusty” L. Neil Smith clearly over-reacted as well. This is not simply a surface issue, but a deep one. What the brouhaha is about is REALLY about is about frustrated human reactions when community breaks down and leaves us with little but emotion and self-righteous posturing on “principle”.
Rather than really being about IP, the whole thing seems to me to be about Smith feeling – understandably in my view – like he was slighted, and the negative pissing contest that resulted. The eager young Shire guys got caught up in their own project, and it seemed never even to enter their minds that they should have troubled themselves to let Smith know in advance that they intended to use Smith’s work in drafting their own declaration. If that happened in a real community of people who knew each other, wouldn’t we all think that the Shire guys had ignored what seems like a natural protocol? Where is the “compassion” that some on the talk show referred to?
This discussion of human interaction and emotion is NOT a side issue — in a real stateless word, how would people deal with each other, and reach agreement on principles and how they apply in particular circumstances? Our mass society makes it easier to act more shallowly and self-interestedly, and easier to diss and mock others while finding convenient self-justifications – including statements of principle (“my work is property!” or “IP is theft!”) – for doing so. This is clearly evident in the Smith-Freeman IP dispute, but we also see it on practically every blog, including threads here. Modern technology makes it possible for us to have great conversations with interesting people all around the world, but it also makes it difficult to satisfy our need for REAL community, and makes it easy for us to act more immaturely and less responsibly.
Second, as to what IP “should” be, Stephan will not be surprised to hear that I agree with Mark Edge’s suggestion is that “property” is really no more than what a community of people AGREE is property … and it there is a very wide realm of economic interests that human societies have treated and do treat as a legitimate property interest. (A separate, but related issue, is the negative role that the state can play.) In short, a society can very well agree that a producer of intellectual work has some claims regarding control, compensation and copying, even when the work passes out of his/her hands.
I made a few comments to Stephan’s November 2009 post on “Intellectual Property and Libertarianism”, which I have gathered together here: http://mises.org/Community/blogs/tokyotom/archive/2009/12/20/what-is-quot-property-quot-a-few-weird-thoughts-on-evolution-society-quot-property-rights-quot-and-quot-intellectual-property-quot-and-the-principles-we-structure-to-justify-them.aspx
I copy them here for the interested reader two of my comments (on society, property and IP) that Stephan left unaddressed;
2.1 http://blog.mises.org/11045/intellectual-property-and-libertarianism/#comment-628161