TT's Lost in Tokyo — by TokyoTom

More follow-up comments regarding on limited liability, excerpted from the comment thread to Geoffrey Allan Plauche‘s post, “Ecofascism in the Name of Fending Off Ecofascism“. Here is my first post, second post and third post.

TokyoTom September 21, 2010 at 8:40 am

Shay: “What limit is there to who all one can sue for damages? Owners, OK. Shareholders (if that term even applies to non-LLCs)? Employees? Customers?”

Your uncertainty here is a manifestation of the confused discussion over liability for “corporate torts”that Stephan Kinsella refers to. His position is that only humans act, and not corporations (though they are given “legal entity” status), so only particular persons who actually injured someone else (and those who directed/ordered their actions) should be liable for any tort – not the corporation itself (and certainly not shareholders, unless they were personally involved somehow). I agree that granting corporate status has greatly confused discussions over whom should be liable for corporate torts, and think Stephan too lightly brushes back the enormous and anonymous torts that our now massive corporations commit — precisely what individuals, for example, is responsible for the BP disaster, for the damage to health and property caused by pollution, or for injuries resulting from faulty products?

Rolling back limited liability should not mean that shareholders SHOULD be held liable for corporate torts in the same way that executives, managers and employees (the first two benefiting from company-purchased insurance policies) and sometimes lenders are; it would just mean that they would get no government-provided “get out of jail free” card. In this way, common shareholders would be put on a similar footing to partners in a partnership that acts through paid managers.

Jon Leckie September 21, 2010 at 9:10 am

Hello Tokyo, thanks for a powerful reply. …

You and I are not going to reach agreement in the short run, but it’s been interesting and you’ve given me a lot to think about. I don’t agree with you that all of the evils you identify can be laid at the feet of limited liability. I remain of the view that the abuses of the corporate form must be set against the benefits of allowing investors to mobilise capital in such a way that the downside is limited to the assets originally invested. It may ultimately be demonstrated that the abuses outweigh the upside, but from I have seen you don’t seem to acknowledge any benefits to limited liability. You also don’t seem to consider what the costs of the extra compliance and risk to investors with personal liability: I can tell you from personal experience that compliance and monitoring is not costless and that the burden can sink an otherwise profitable and socially beneficial project. You might say “Well too bad!”, but that’s lost jobs for people, that’s products that won’t be made, that’s wealth foregone.

Ultimately, extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. You put so much responsiblity at the feet of limited liability that I don’t think it’s unfair of me to ask for more evidence, better arguments (I may find them on further reading of your blog ). I think Stephan Kinsella’s request of you earlier on this page remains valid, to quote:

“Tom, when you say the state grant of limited liability is not justifiable, this is a… way of trying to reverse the burden of proof. This very statement is relevant ONLY if the grant changes what would be the case anyway. That is, if shareholders would be vicariously responsible under a libertarian theory of cause for torts of employees of corporations they owned shares in.”

I believe I understand your response: “no one else gets to avoid tortious liability to third parties based EITHER on the grant of limited liability of the state or by a private contract, so why should people who stand behind an LLC get to do so? The existence of limited liablity (at least vis a vis third parties) is not the default position, they’re a creation of the state.” (Is that right? I’ve tried to be fair, I’m not interested in strawmen). Nonetheless, I don’t think that is a satisfactory libertarian theory of cause for tortious liability for reasons I’ve tried to set out already (contractual liability can exist absent a state (and thus so can limited liability) how would tortious liability exist absent the state?) and so Kinsella’s request remains valid.

If you think that question is covered, my other objection remains: it must ultimately be demonstrated that the abuses outweigh the upside. The law of unintended consequences applies to every proposal for change, and I don’t think you give fair credit to the role that limited liablity entities play in an advanced economy.

I’ll come and see you at your site, or watch out for a reply here. You’ve helped me clarify my own thinking and I appreciate that a lot. Best, JL.

TokyoTom September 21, 2010 at 2:01 pm

Jon:

Thanks for your response. While my envirofascist skin remains somewhat thin, I am fine with your tone – even if I see you as exaggerating and not fully comprehending my position.

A few comments in response:

“I remain of the view that the abuses of the corporate form must be set against the benefits of allowing investors to mobilise capital in such a way that the downside is limited to the assets originally invested.”

What, if anything, is libertarian about your proposed cost-benefit calculation? In determining whether state-granted limited liability is justifiable, shall we engage in a utilitarian weighing of the advantages to investors against the disadvantages to others?

“you don’t seem to acknowledge any benefits to limited liability”

But I have; but I have also pointed out that most of the benefits could be achieved by contract. It’s the benefits that can ONLY be achieved by government fiat and at the cost of innocent third parties that I object to.

You seem to think that either the intrusion of government here is minor or the cost to innocent third parties is trivial, but I can assure you that it is not. Indeed, much of what is wrong with the US in particular and with the world more generally can be laid at the foot of wide-scale government-enabled risk-shifting and moral hazard of the type seen in grants of limited liability and the concomitant cycle of regulation (in which the losers are always a number of steps behind) that such grants have set off.

“compliance and monitoring is not costless and that the burden can sink an otherwise profitable and socially beneficial project.”

I’m quite aware that compliance and monitoring are not costless; you, however, see to think that shifting risks to others and thus easing compliance and monitoring costs IS costless and “socially beneficial”, while ignoring that there are clear winners and losers from such government favor. Did you miss the Gulf oil spill, the limits on liability, the poor planning and oversight, the lack of caution, and the costs being borne by quite a different class of people than BP’s shareholders? Of many cases of environment harms experienced throughout the US? Are you unaware of the massive and ongoing environmental damage similarly caused by “socially beneficial” oil and gas development in Nigeria and Ecuador?

You and Kinsella: “Tom, when you say the state grant of limited liability is not justifiable, this is a… way of trying to reverse the burden of proof. This very statement is relevant ONLY if the grant changes what would be the case anyway. That is, if shareholders would be vicariously responsible under a libertarian theory of cause for torts of employees of corporations they owned shares in.”

Au contraire; it’s you and Stephan who are shifting the burden of proof and trying to avoid yourselves to come up with any convincing libertarian arguments FOR the state grant of limited liability to corporate shareholders. Stephan has acknowledged elsewhere that the grant is NON-libertarian, could not be contracted for voluntarily, and that if it were not to exist that insurers would be offering to insure shareholders from downside risks, but like you stubbornly seeks to cling conservatively to a status quo that favors investors and the big government corporatism has produced.

Far from me having to make a libertarian case shareholders should be vicariously responsible under a libertarian theory of cause for torts of employees of corporations, I simply need to show that the grant of limited liability significantly CHANGES the structure of the market and the behavior of market participants. Clearly, limited liability MATTERS, as amply demonstrated not simply by looking at markets and cases where limited liability shields shareholders from damages in cases where partnerships would be liable, but also by your own deep reluctance (and Stephan’s) to do anything about it. Stephan makes a thin lawyerly dodge, while you offer utilitarian arguments.

Stephan’s desire for a libertarian theory of vicarious liability of shareholders in the case of “torts of employees” of corporations is commendable, but as I have already noted, such a desire is itself confused by the failure to recognize the state favors given to corporations and the massive scale at which they operate and can damage third persons. It appears that Kinsella would have us treat most damages caused by companies as “torts by [particular] employees”, thus denying any recourse by injured parties to corporate assets. Such an analysis may be appropriate in the case of small businesses where who acts and under what authority may be very clear (as in the case of partnerships and sole proprietorships), but hardly make any sense in the case of the large, anonymous and bureaucratized institutions that limited liability and legal entity status have directly led to.

Sorry, but it seems to me that your own approach to the issue of tort liability makes even less libertarian sense: you have concluded that in a stateless society institutions would arise only to enforce contracts, while individuals and firms would get away scot-free if they willfully or negligently harmed others. Surely a brief look at traditional societies would quickly inform you that such societies have very sophisticated and effective ways of controlling behavior that damages others.

“my other objection remains: it must ultimately be demonstrated that the abuses outweigh the upside. The law of unintended consequences applies to every proposal for change, and I don’t think you give fair credit to the role that limited liablity entities play in an advanced economy.”

Ahh, there’s your non-libertarian insistence on the need for cost-benefit analysis for a change in eliminating limited liability as to persons involuntarily injured by corporate acts again. Do I need to add up all of the people harmed in the BP spill and weigh them against the potential cost to BP shareholders?

“The law of unintended consequences” sounds suspiciously like the precautionary principle that enviros always argue for (precisely because corporations are risk-shifting machines); bravo! Actually, I’m very well aware, not only of the very central and valuable role that corporate entities play in our economy, but of all of the negative unintended consequences that the grant of limited liability (and other favors) has entailed. But far from throwing the baby out with the bath water, I see reform in this area as both a sine qua non for any meaningful effort to reduce statism and something that is eminently achievable and with a net benefit in efficiency, risk-management and, last but not least, justice.

TT

J. Murray September 21, 2010 at 9:17 am

There is no such thing as a libertarian state-granted limited liability.

TokyoTom September 22, 2010 at 12:00 am

Agreed; that’s MY point exactly.

Jon Leckie September 22, 2010 at 4:40 am

Well hang on now guys, there’s very much a thing as libertarian state-granted limited liability – aren’t you conflating liberatarianism with anarchism? The two are not the same and I can find no definition of libertarianisn that requires the abolishment of the state.

There very much is such a concept of state-granted limited liability, it’s just that Tokyo sees proponents as being obligated to justify its continuance PRECISELY because it is a gift from the state, whereas – on this point – I view it as also capable of existing absent the state through private contract. Tokyo then asks how private contract can exclude third party tortious liability, and I respond with how can tortious liability even EXIST in a stateless environment? (Which might be a stupid question, but no one’s yet said anything on it, it must be a question addressed in the literature somewhere).

Tokyo, one discrete question on your response above: you say it’s non-libertarian to weigh costs and benefits, summing this up as a crude utilitarianism. Why is that not an approach I can take? I mean, on the BP example, one might read your post and wonder whether BP merrily skipped town, having destroyed the gulf completely, taken no remedial action and paid no billions of dollars into a compensation fund, plus remaining exposed to private civil claims? Ask British pensioners whose payments are reliant on BP’s dividends whether they’ve suffered or not. Yes those living around the Gulf have had a hell of a time, but that’s not enough of an argument: accidents happen. BP is being punished. So it’s not a crude balancing act between (a) environment destroyed, people suffering and (b) callous shareholders laughing to the bank. I’m saying that limited liability may be responsible for a vast amount of economic activity that otherwise may not take place due to the unlimited risk of personal liability. Surely you need to take this into account, no?

Oh, and I need to ask you to do me a favour: please don’t accuse me of supporting big government corporatism. I may not be an anarchist, but I am as resolutely against corporate welfare and crony capitalism as anyone else who enjoys these pages. Supporting limited liability as a vehicle for mobilising investment is NOT the same thing as supporting GE or GM, please acknowledge this.

J. Murray September 22, 2010 at 5:30 am

I’m not really confusing libertarianism with anarchism here. A state-granted limited liability would be violating the life, liberty, and property angle. I don’t see libertarianism compatible with a state granting immunity to a party for any wrongdoing. The general argument between minarchism and anarchism in libertarian circles is whether the state should exist to punish those who violate those three key tennents, not whether the state exists to protect the wrongdoer against just punishment.

Jon Leckie September 22, 2010 at 6:24 am

Thanks, J. Murrary: that’s helpful. It’s probably apparent enough, but I’ve a lot more reading to do and am picking up a lot as I go along.

Does it affect your view at all to stress that limited liability does not preclude recovery? There’s no immunity: but recovery is limited to the assets held in the vehicle and if damages are in excess of the value of those assets, the entity is dead. There seems to be remedies available beyond banning limited liability to prevent/minimise undercapitalised entities engaging in behaviour likely to give rise to torious liability (contrast BP with Mom&Pop LLC running a local hardware store): I’m really struggling to get across the line on limited liability as ipso facto in breach of the life, liberty and property standard (thanks again for clarifying the perspective there though). Maybe one day I’ll end up in his camp, I’m keeping an open mind (as much as one can try!). Lots to think about.

PS. Without a state to impose liability for and punish tortious acts against the property rights of another, how would liability for the tortious act be enforced against the tortfeasor?

TokyoTom September 23, 2010 at 12:30 pm

Jon, as for “how can tortious liability even EXIST in a stateless environment?”, I clearly addressed this above where I said:

Sorry, but it seems to me that your own approach to the issue of tort liability makes even less libertarian sense: you have concluded that in a stateless society institutions would arise only to enforce contracts, while individuals and firms would get away scot-free if they willfully or negligently harmed others. Surely a brief look at traditional societies would quickly inform you that such societies have very sophisticated and effective ways of controlling behavior that damages others.

Maybe this post with Bruce Yandle’s thoughts on how humans manage commons might be a good start: http://bit.ly/8V2q6R

Utilitarianism presumes both that it is possible to measure and aggregate conflicting preferences and that it is acceptable for government to do so and to intentionally benefit particular groups of individuals at the expense of others. Austrians say that the first is impossible and libertarians say that the the second violates basic principles.

As for BP and other corporations, I have little sympathy for shareholders, who have the benefit of their bargain (including dividends in good times that cannot be clawed back when risks materialize and the company is unable to fulfill its obligation), while persons injured by corporate actions have little or no ability to bargaining in advance whatsoever, or to get ready to get harmed. (The case of BP is compounded by the fact that government, by claiming to own “public” resources, deprives the fishermen harmed of any control over their livelihoods including any property right that they can claimed was harmed.) This just scratches the surface; I have commented extensively on BP on my blog and on other pages here: http://bit.ly/crTbEA

Yes, I see that you are “saying that limited liability may be responsible for a vast amount of economic activity that otherwise may not take place due to the unlimited risk of personal liability.” I see we agree that limited liability is very important – great! – but you seem to think either that, somewhat magically, such limitations on liability make risks simply disappear, or that such a shifting of risks by investors in particular firms (and the investor class generally) to innocent third parties class leads to improved risk management, or that such shifting or risks by those who fund and benefit from them to innocent third parties is justified on utilitarian or some other unspecified principled grounds. Surely you can see that “the unlimited risk of personal liability” is the default situation without state intervention?

By the way, I completely accept your good faith; please accept my pokes simply as attempt to get you to reflect on the implications of your positions.

You might think that you don’t “support[] big government corporatism”, but surely you ought to realizing that limited liability is a key factor in the rise of statist corporations. Supporting limited liability as towards innocent third parties might be effective in creating a vehicle for mobilizing investment, but it is also clear a vehicle of massive risk-shifting, theft and at destroying community in favor of fundamentally amoral governments and corporations.

You suggest you don’t support GE or GM, but if you can accept and support limited liability, then surely also you must accept its consequences.

TT

TokyoTom September 23, 2010 at 12:48 pm

“Accidents happen”? So do systematic trainwrecks due to mismanagement of risks.

Could government interventions that enable risk-shifting in banks, securities firms and corporations (and subsequent bailouts) have anything to do with engendering such mismanagement?

Massive kleptocracy in the third world differs little from what we see at home.

Beefcake the Mighty September 22, 2010 at 9:51 pm

“I agree that granting corporate status has greatly confused discussions over whom should be liable for corporate torts, and think Stephan too lightly brushes back the enormous and anonymous torts that our now massive corporations commit – precisely what individuals, for example, is responsible for the BP disaster, for the damage to health and property caused by pollution, or for injuries resulting from faulty products?”

What does this question have to do with limited liability? Why should shareholders be any more responsible for the disaster than people who filled their tanks with BP’s gas? They both gave the the company money, after all.

I’m having a hard time seeing what point, exactly, you’re trying to make here (beyond anti-corporatist bromides).

TokyoTom September 23, 2010 at 11:20 am

Lord Bungulous Bringer of Beefcake:

What, those who simply buy a company’s products should be treated on the same basis as those who invest in the company’s business model? Are you trying to clarify, or obfuscate? One offers money in exchange for goods or services, the other offers money for the profits he expects to gain from the company’s business model.

I’m having a hard time seeing what point, exactly, you’re trying to make here (beyond pro-statist-corporatist bromides).

What does the question of whether corporations should have any vicarious liability for the actions of its employees and agents have to do with limited liability? Thanks for the opportunity for me to be a bringer of light, but it’s not that complicated: without limited liability and corporate “legal entity” status, investors and corporate managers would care to make sure that employees are careful. The limited liability shield makes it the interest of shareholders NOT TO CARE, and the interest of managers to obscure who is responsible. Because incorporations make possible large, impersonal businesses without a clear locus of responsibility, on the behest of victims seeking recompense for damages suffered, courts tend to hold “the company” responsible.

In short, the confusion that Stephan raises and professes to be concerned about is a product of the very state grant of limited liability that he – like you – thinks is too unimportant to question, but important enough to defend.

Why don’t you and Stephan start a libertarian fan club for essential government interventions? You can start with limited liability for corporate shareholders generally, add the specific caps on liability granted to the oil+gas industry and nuclear industry, and include the preemption of strict common law protection of property from pollution, in favor of federal preemption and rights to pollute.

Or you could think a little more seriously about how we could replace corporate risk-shifting machines and the whole mass of federal and state regulation that are purported intended to curtail such risks (but instead create barriers to entry and ensconce management from shareholders, thus introducing another layer of moral hazard) with internal risk control and risk control via insurers acting for shareholders.

A number of conservative commentators have made the radical suggestion that banks, securities firms and offshore oil+gas cos should be allowed to act only through partnerships (or other unlimited liability entities); they are thinking too modestly and have overlooked the limited liability for corporate shareholders that drives our whole regulatory edifice and has set off our escalating cycle of statist rent-seeking and corruption.

TT

Beefcake the Mighty September 23, 2010 at 11:26 am

“One offers money in exchange for goods or services, the other offers money for the profits he expects to gain from the company’s business model.”

Yeah, what a critical distinction. Shocking I didn’t see it previously; thanks so much!

TokyoTom September 23, 2010 at 1:09 pm

Not sure whether I should be pleased that my comments are so pedestrian, or disturbed that you are content with government interventions that help to erase moral distinctions.

Prior to the creation of corporations, it was clear who was doing what … thank goodness for anonymity and lack of personal responsibility!

TokyoTom September 23, 2010 at 9:39 pm

[I am]  thankful that you provide an opportunity for me to help others examine the growing rot set off by the very non-libertarian grant of limited liability to shareholders regarding injury to involuntary third parties:

http://mises.org/Community/blogs/tokyotom/archive/2009/02/26/the-curse-of-limited-liability-wsj-com-executives-traders-of-big-financial-corporations-generate-risky-businesss-while-smaller-partnerships-are-much-more-risk-averse.aspx

http://mises.org/Community/blogs/tokyotom/archive/2010/06/29/limited-liability-financial-crisis-and-bp-someone-else-sees-the-obvious-quot-black-swan-quot-of-executive-trader-moral-hazard-after-investment-banks-went-corporate.aspx

http://mises.org/Community/blogs/tokyotom/archive/2010/04/22/finally-an-lvmi-commentator-points-out-the-elephant-in-the-room-effective-reform-to-rein-in-rampant-moral-hazard-at-banks-means-removing-limited-liability.aspx

http://mises.org/Community/blogs/tokyotom/archive/2010/08/18/in-a-shocking-moment-of-honesty-conocophillips-ceo-says-offshore-oil-isn-t-economical-without-government-gifts-of-limited-liability.aspx

TT